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RE: Old Shuffle Post
Fri, 2008-02-29 19:27 — zerolessyou
Hello,
new to AE and interested in using to create random playback disc as discussed here:
http://dvdafteredit.com/node/673
the post referenced seems to be missing, and I haven't had luck experimenting without the complete instructions.
for reference i am working on a dvd that plays a title screen and then randomly plays through 60 +/- short chapters.
any help would be greatly appreciated,
charles
Great feedback
Hi Charles,
Glad you got it working, and thanks for the update !
Ian
RE: Shuffle Update
Hello Ian & Trai ~
I do have a very simple dvd structure (as it is for an installation) and it is afore-mentioned layout:
For a continual loop, it would be best to LinkPGC (post command in the Shuffled PGC) to the dummy PGC in the Title with a Link PGC pre-command, right back to the PGC with the Shuffled programs in it.
It seems to be working for me, with the settings at Cell Still Time: 1, PGC Still Time: 0 (and as Ian mentioned the PGC Still Time doesn't seem to have an affect). Without setting the Cell Still Time, no player that I have tried loops the DVD.
As for testing I have tried all the old DVD players I could find and went down the wall at Best Buy -- so most likely not the best data, but thus far it is alright.
Also my original approach was to
Though, really, you can get infinite looping working in a multi-PGC Title with no pre and post commands at all, just set each PGC's "Next link" to each other.
.
It didn't work at the time, however perhaps I'll try it again with a Cell Still Time of 1.
charles
Shuffle & the Apple Player
One thing I've noticed, by the way, is that the Apple Player only shuffles on the first pass through the PCG - after that, the random order is the same for every play-through, regardless of whether I link back to play the PGC again, or set a high PG Playback Count. This even happens if I go from PGC 2 to the VMG and then play the title again. In our hardware players, everything works as expected.
Ian
Thanks Trai
First - I'm not claiming to be an expert on shuffle play, I'm just passing on the findings from old threads to help Charles with his testing. Also, I have done exactly the test you suggest, and I can confirm what Charles has found - using the Apple Player, Jake's advice of "PGC Still 1, Cell Stills 0" causes the last cell to freeze at the end. Whereas setting "PGC Still 0, Cell Stills 1" works, as you say - and, as I suggested in the previous post. So, I've edited my post at the beginning of the thread to reflect this. For what it's worth, "PGC Still 1 and Cell Still 1" seems to work as well, but as you described back when we did the original tests, this violates the spec.
All of this is from the Apple Player only though, and as you, Jake and Ben found when you did the original research, it doesn't always work the same way in all players. I don't have time to do any exhaustive testing, so any extra info you or others have is valuable.
Ian
It does work
For sure, Ian, I only touched upon the technique here; just jumping in to correct a couple of statements.
Now you're saying I've got to write down the whole of the various settings for the various implementations? :-)
That will take some doing - I'll get back to you on that (hint for now: put the minimum value in the PGC still time, too).
Meanwhile, may I suggest, you might want to set up a test project to see how this feature works, for yourself. 4, 2 second clips is all you need to get started.
Take care,
Trai
--
Trai Forrester
TFDVD Research Labs
DVDVerification.com
Except...
...that Charles says in the 9th post in this thread:
the DVD never seems to get there - it just freezes on the last frame of the last randomly selected video and the counter continues to run. In PGC 1 (the randomized one) I have set the 'next PGC number' to 2 (the dummy)
So that approach doesn't seem to be working for him either. Hopefully the Cell Still Time 1 / PGC Still 0 combination has worked for him.
Ian
Depends
Hi Ian,
The 'LinkPGCN' command (the "N" stands for PGC #... there, that's better? :-) would depend on the Title's structure. For sure, this project probably has the shuffled programs in PGC #1.
Though, really, you can get infinite looping working in a multi-PGC Title with no pre and post commands at all, just set each PGC's "Next link" to each other.
Take care,
Trai
--
Trai Forrester
TFDVD Research Labs
DVDVerification.com
Doh !
Thanks Trai, brain-fart on my part. What you describe is what Charles has currently, I think, so hopefully it's working for him. Link PGC 1 would work too though, right ?
Ian
Won't Work
Ian,
The LinkTopPG command, nor any of the LinkSubinstructions, are valid in a PGC's post command area.
For a continual loop, it would be best to LinkPGC (post command in the Shuffled PGC) to the dummy PGC in the Title with a Link PGC pre-command, right back to the PGC with the Shuffled programs in it.
Take care,
Trai
--
Trai Forrester
TFDVD Research Labs
DVDVerification.com
Interesting
Hi Trai,
Thanks for the comment - but, can't we always Menu out of the shuffle PGC ? Charles, you could try the LinkTopPG command even if you keep the dummy PGC as Trai suggests.
Ian
Not a good idea
Ian,
The dummy PGC (I always map at least one program to this PGC) has to stay to receive the link command to get navigation out of the shuffled Title. Won't work reliably otherwise.
Take care,
Trai
--
Trai Forrester
TFDVD Research Labs
DVDVerification.com
Hi Charles,
Hi Charles,
How is this working out for you ? According to Jake's test, if you are using non-zero Cell Still Times, then the PGC Still Time should be set to zero.
If you are still having problems, you could also try removing the dummy PGC altogether, and just adding a LinkTopPG command to the shuffle PGCs post-commands ?
Ian
Cell Still Times?
Update:
I changed the "Cell Still Time" value from 0 to 1 in the Cells of the video PGs and now the DVD is playing back properly on the Apple DVD player. I am going to test it on a DVD player now, but perhaps it is being agreeable.
charles
just Me and the Dummy (PGC)
Ian,
I seem to be missing some key and am feeling foolish for it. Sorry to bug.
I am still having the same problem that I was before, playback stops on the last frame of the last PG chosen from the shuffled PGC.
I would like it to continuously loop the shuffled PGC until the DVD is manually stopped and/or forever. With this objective the "PG Playback Approach" doesn't work.
As of now I have: One "one random or multi-PGC" VTS containing two PGCs: the first is the shuffled PGC and contains 41 PGs with video, the second is a dummy PGC that has the same TT value (TT 1) as the first PGC. The shuffled PGC has a post command "Link PGC 2" and the Dummy PGC(2) has a pre command "Link PGC 1". As well as "Link PGC 1" I have tried "Jump VTS_TT 1" and "Call VMG PGC 1" (in which case I set that Dummy PGC to "Jump TT 1").
Currently the Dummy PGC(2) has no cells, however I have tried versions with a cell in the Dummy PGC -- as I noticed that the overview PDF and posts on this site mention the need for that.
When I run the tracer on the DVD as it is now it plays the shuffled PGC (without shuffling of course) and loops at the end of it.
Any Ideas?
charles
A couple of things to try
Hi Charles,
Glad to hear it's working for you ! I should add a how-to article sometime soon. Iirc, the prev/next PGC fields must be zero in a random or multi-PGC title. So rather than setting next PGC to 2, try adding Link PGC 2 to the post-commands of your dummy PGC.
Alternatively you could just set the "PG Playback Count" much higher - say you have ten cells, setting it to 99 would result in ten loops through the PGC.
Hth,
Ian
Shuffle Update
Ian,
hello it is Charles here. The random DVD got superseded for a bit by other projects but it is back on track.
I started a new project in DVDSP and seem to have the random play working marvelously, I've tested it on the players available to me.
For anyone that would run across this approach via google (as I did) I would say random scripts just don't compare.
I now have a basic (I think) DVDAE/DVD Spec question:
After the randomized PGC TT plays all the cells in it, I would like to loop it. I have added a dummy PGC with a jump back to the Dummy PGC.
However the DVD never seems to get there - it just freezes on the last frame of the last randomly selected video and the counter continues to run.
In PGC 1 (the randomized one) I have set the 'next PGC number' to 2 (the dummy).
Am I on the right track?
charles
Interesting !
Hi Charles,
This only happens for me if the Title hasn't been set to "One random or multi-PGC" in the Title Play Map (Step 1 above) - you need to do it on a per-title basis, it isn't a global setting for the VTS. Do you have multiple titles in the VTS ? This only happens in DVDSP if you set up a story, afaik.
Ian
Program Map has grayed out menus
Ian,
I am looking at the Shuffle PGC (for steps 2-4 in your last post) and the drop-down menu on each cell is grayed out. Strangely, all but the first PG have a setting of No PTT. However, in the left pane's display all of the PGs list a PTT with a unique number.
I have tried the two option settings, 'Lock PTT Numbers' and 'Renumber PTTs'. I am sure this is a simple problem, but I can't seem to figure it out. Perhaps a new set of source files will help.
charles
Need PGs but not PTTs
Hi Charles,
Glad you got it working ! I haven't tried it myself but Jake says they shouldn't have Chapter ( Part Of Title, or PTT ) numbers but should be Programs ( PGs ). Iirc, markers made in DVDSP are cells but not PGs, whereas chapters are PGs. To remove the chapter ( PTT ) numbers in DVDAE, but keep the Program numbers necessary for the shuffle to work:
1 - Make sure the VTS is set to "one random or multi-PGC", not "one sequential" in the VMG Title Play Map
2 - Select the shuffle PGC and look at the Program Map in the Right Pane
3 - For each Program, there is a drop-down selector to assign or remove PTT ( chapter ) numbers
4 - Use this to select "No PTT" for each PG
Save and test - please let us know how you get on !
Out of interest, if you want for some reason to change a cell to have no PG number in DVDAE, drag the cell in the left side of the Program Map up into the PG above it. To remove it from the PGC altogether, drag it from the left side to the right. Dragging cells into the Program Map in this way allows you to quickly create "stories", in DVDSP-speak.
Cheers,
Ian
spec-based authoring rules
Just got shuffle mode working.
Worked in Apple DVD Player once I converted the cell markers to chapter markers - must have had my terminology confused.
Brilliant!
So much faster than the scripts...
Thanks for your help Ian. Kudos to Trai Forrester, Jake Russell and Ben Weinrach (and anyone else) for this technique.
I'm hooked.
charles
Hi Charles, It sounds as if
Hi Charles,
It sounds as if you've done everything correctly, and are doing very well making the transition to spec-based authoring ! This may well be a limitation of Tracer - there are a few features not fully implemented and Shuffle is a relatively little-used capability, so this may be one of them. Please try testing your project in the Apple DVD Player - if it works there, you should be good to go. You say you have no "autoplay" - but presumably you must have a JumpTT in the First Play to get to the shuffle PGC, is that right ? If not you'll need to add one.
Ian
RE: PGC Shuffle Instructions
Ian,
thank you for the instructions. This is my first adventure with spec-based authoring.
I have created a small test DVD with DSP.
- The VTS is set to 'one random or multi-PGC'.
- The PGC has one chapter with six segments marked with cell markers and no pre/posts commands. Its playback mode is set to 'Shuffle' with PG Playback Count set to 5 and still time of 1 second.
- The Cells in the PGC have an attribute called 'Seamless playback' which has been set to 'no'
There is no AutoPlay or navigation - which I thought would be easier for testing, but perhaps not?
When I run Tracer, it simply plays through the segments sequentially. It is almost as if the settings are having no effect.
Do you have any ideas?
thank you
charles
PGC Shuffle Instructions
Hi Charles,
Welcome aboard ! Unfortunately Trai's original thread hasn't made it into the archives, as you discovered.
However if I recall correctly, essentially it's a very simple operation: select the PGC you want to Shuffle in the left pane, and change it's PG Playback Mode from "Normal" to "Shuffle". The number of random selections from the available PGs is controlled by the "PG Playback Count" setting in the PGC, underneath where you set it to shuffle. Set this to the number you want minus one. So for example, if there are 12 chapters and you want all 12 to play once, set the Playback Count to 11. If you only want 8 selections, set it to 7. If you want all the PGs to play twice, set it to 23. ( 12*2 -1 ) You then also need to set the VTS to be not one-sequential. To do this, select the VMG in the left pane, then unfold the Title Play Map of the VTS containing the shuffle PGC, and change it's Type to "One random or multi-PGC".
There are also some other important rules to follow for best player compatibility, researched originally by Jake Russell and Ben Weinrach. Here they are in summary:
- No chapters except the first PG. So only one PTT.
- Cells are to be non-seamless.
- PGC still time of 0 second
- No jump or call system space commands in the pre/post commands area of the shuffle PGC. Ie. you will need a multi PGC Title. The shuffle PGC Links to a dummy PGC and then the commands can take you away as normal.
- Cell Still Time 1
I'm not sure of your level of experience with spec-based authoring, so if you need extra information on any of the above, please let me know.
Cheers,
Ian
Edit to correct Cell Still and PGC Still Values - 11.04.08
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