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Buttons over video not working on some dvd players
Mon, 2007-10-08 17:00 — Erick P
Hello everyone. This is my first post here. Been working with DVDAE for a few weeks now and love it. I'm stumped on my current project.
I've got a slideshow set for infinite pause within each cell (1 nav pack per cell). I'm trying to add buttons over video to enable use of the directional arrows for navigating to the next/previous program. I have the 50 slides setup as PG's within a single PGC within a VTS1.
It works just fine in my software player and on some hardware players, but not all. Is there some setting or rule I'm not aware of that would keep this from working?
TIA,
Erick P
Some more detail
Hi Ian,
For sure, Invisible Buttons always presuppose that a sub picture is present, just with no contrast values. In the early days before DVD Studio Pro and Maestro auto-inserted sub pictures upon multiplex, for every menu that didn't include one (Maestro did this early on), lot's of incompatibilities were experienced. Scenarist and Creator users still have to load them by hand, of course (white 720 X 480 or 720 X 576 graphic set for full transparency).
I should clarify this issue of sub pictures and cell boundaries; because there is ample provision in the DVD Spec for various duration button displays to occur anywhere in the Title on an individual sub picture, regardless of a cell's proximity.
The Nav Packs Button Highlight Start and End times will be offset across multiple VOBU's by the capable authoring system's multiplexing, as rarely would a sub picture, in this instance, fall precisely on a VOBU boundary, but this is done all the time. I worked on a large project this year that took months of repeated testing (early on, I helped the client buy a Scenarist system because, as you mentioned earlier, DVD SP couldn't keep the individual sub picture instances separate without bounding them individually with cells), where they had hundreds of individual buttons in 7 long multi-angle streams, in a single cell. These button instances were the same button layout, but needed to refresh their commands (which had to be different in each angle), every two seconds to account for user angle changes.
The 'White Rabbit' feature is often implemented with single "buttons over subtitles", not bounded by cells - though the original White Rabbit feature was installed with seamless branching, and is a more robust method for various reasons.
Abstraction layer authoring systems by design, to avoid an even more exponential overhead, shy away from allowing too much control down around the cell and below level - no scripting or targeting of cells/programs/chapters in Stories, for instance. And there can be lots of issues with simple DVD SP Stories, if they're not corrected in DVDAfterEdit, I'll tell you! So, naturally, as you know, these abstraction layer authoring systems are going to restrict other aspects of control, as we've run into, and mostly overcome around here.
Though, when possible, I think it's best to bound events like buttons and other functionality by cell; as you might remember my several years ago 'brotherly admonishments' to the original 'Nav Packs Club' :-), on related issues.
Thanks,
Trai
--
Trai Forrester
TFDVD Research Labs
DVDVerification.com
Subpictures are a requirement
Hi Erick,
Is it possible for me to add a subpicture into the current Video_TS build? That would at least allow me to verify that this is indeed going to fix my BOV problem.
Your developer will need to add subpictures, even if that isn't what is causing your current issues. As Trai says, it's a spec requirement, and you are almost certain to see problems if your app doesn't conform. The timing information is important too as Trai says, however in this case where all you need is a simple slideshow you won't need to worry about the issues he mentions of multiple subpictures within a cell - one per cell should be fine.
Ian
Plan C
Hi Erick,
DVDAfterEdit is not a multiplexer (yet?), so some other authoring program will have to put it together for you.
Take care,
Trai
--
Trai Forrester
TFDVD Research Labs
DVDVerification.com
Can I add a subpicure with DVDAE
Ian or Trai,
Is it possible for me to add a subpicture into the current Video_TS build? That would at least allow me to verify that this is indeed going to fix my BOV problem.
Thanks.
Thanks
I'm going to follow up with the developer and see if we can get a different result after adding in the "dummy" subpicture. I really appreciate all the timely feedback. I'll report back what I find.
Erick P
Trai nailed it
Hi Erick,
Trai has covered my next suggestion very well. Even if you choose to create invisible buttons, most authoring applications will create a "dummy" subpicture and multiplex it in. And as Trai says, the button highlights will need to be flagged as starting and ending at each cell boundary - if this isn't the case, it will cause issues in some players.
Ian
Sub pictures are needed
Hi Eric,
Yes. For DVD Spec compliance and full player acceptance, you're going to need to have sub pictures, with explicit button highlight timing and other info in the VOB Nav Packs. And, depending what your custom app is doing, or not doing, there could be some more requirements.
Take care,
Trai
--
Trai Forrester
TFDVD Research Labs
DVDVerification.com
No Subpicture currently in VTS's
Trai,
Ok, checked on that and indeed there is no "Subpicture 0 Attributes" listed.
Now, the way I read your first post (correct me if I'm wrong), was that you're wanting to add buttons onto an existing (already multiplexed) slideshow that didn't have buttons on the individual slides before, and probably no sub pictures, either. If that's correct, then there's no provision to do that.
Actually, we are using the custom app to build the entire project. I'm only using DVDAE to see where things are as we build the app and to make sure we are getting it right. So based on that, what piece are we missing here or what can I provide to help clarify? Do we have to have a subpicture in order for some players to "see" the buttons?
Erick.
Might need plan B
Hi Erick,
In the VTS's Video Attributes (Click on the VTS and look in the Right Pane), you can check to see if there's a "Subpicture 0 Attributes" listed, but it won't tell their timing instances.
Now, the way I read your first post (correct me if I'm wrong), was that you're wanting to add buttons onto an existing (already multiplexed) slideshow that didn't have buttons on the individual slides before, and probably no sub pictures, either. If that's correct, then there's no provision to do that.
Now, you could recreate the Slideshow with buttons and highlights in another authoring app (or maybe your custom app?), and then use DVDAfterEdit to Import the new VTS into your current project, replacing the VTS with the buttonless and sub pictureless slides. That would work.
Take care,
Trai
--
Trai Forrester
TFDVD Research Labs
DVDVerification.com
Not sure how to check...
First, did your 'custom application' place individual/separate sub pictures, by cell (each slide must be in it's own cell), one for each slide in the stream ready to be used for button highlights?
Good question. I'm not sure. I've asked the developer and am waiting for his reply. Is there a way I can check that inside DVDAE?
Erick.
Any Highlights?
Hi Erick,
First, did your 'custom application' place individual/separate sub pictures, by cell (each slide must be in it's own cell), one for each slide in the stream ready to be used for button highlights?
Thanks,
Trai
--
Trai Forrester
TFDVD Research Labs
DVDVerification.com
Title Map Info
Trai,
Thanks for the tip. I checked and the project comes in with "in all places" enabled.
I found this post from earlier this year: http://dvdafteredit.com/node/1468 In it there is a brief mention of BOV and subtitles and problems with hardware players. Is there something related in here that may be of help?
The sentence the stood out to me was
So, whereas with DVDSP each button can only activate once, if you make subtitles and convert them to buttons in DVDAfterEdit ( not DVDSP ) you can avoid the problems you have with hardware players. ( It may be necessary to have the subtitles closer together, by the way - one second or less. )
Does this mean that buttons will disappear if not "activated" via some navigation option?
Erick P
Check the Title Play Map Settings
Hi Erick,
Under the VMG settings, there's a 'Title Play Map' data heading in the Right Pane. Twirl under there and go to the Title Number the slideshow is in. Make sure that "Jump/Link/Call" commands are set to be allowed "in all places". Many times, it's set in there to deny Jump/Link/Call commands for buttons, allowing them "only in pre/post", which some players will honor.
Hope it's as simple as that; I've had several projects in here over the last couple of years where that setting change did the trick.
The above said, are you trying to add buttons to a build (slideshow) after the fact (multiplex)? That is not easy (read: just about impossible) with the current technology. Regardless, you're going to have to have button highlights, i.e. sub pictures, multiplexed in the stream before attempting to bound them precisely with Nav Pack highlight information, as allot of players will balk if there's no sub picture data in the button to highlight.
Take care,
Trai
--
Trai Forrester
TFDVD Research Labs
DVDVerification.com
Thanks for you help
Ian,
Just a few more questions, I need to get this clear. So, you are creating your slideshow in your custom application. Does it work at this point ? Then you open the VIDEO_TS in DVDAE and after saving it stops working ? Or, are you just trying to troubleshoot using DVDAE ? Or have you imported the slideshow VTS with DVDAE, and that's when the problems start ?
The slideshow is not working when it comes out of the custom application. I'm using DVDAE to try and figure out what is going on. I haven't changed anything at this point.
The navpacks are 15 frames long currently. I'm not sure if we can do 1 frame navpacks. I'll check on that tomorrow. We're adding the buttons outside of DVDAE, they are present when we author.
Thanks for your help so far. I'm trying to upload some images to my iweb site, but it's acting strangely. I'll post back an image if you need more info.
Erick P
Hi Erick, Just a few more questions
Hi Erick,
Just a few more questions, I need to get this clear. So, you are creating your slideshow in your custom application. Does it work at this point ? Then you open the VIDEO_TS in DVDAE and after saving it stops working ? Or, are you just trying to troubleshoot using DVDAE ? Or have you imported the slideshow VTS with DVDAE, and that's when the problems start ?
- How did you create the slideshow ?
Not exactly sure how to answer this one. The slideshow is comprised of still images. Each Image is stored in a cell with a single nav pack. All the images are in a single PGC stored as programs (PG's) within VTS1.
Sorry I was assuming you were using one of the "usual suspects" - for example DVDSP creates a slideshow in exactly the way you describe, but without the user needing to know the details. So, how many frames per GOP/navpack are there ? Usually this setup works best when each navpack is a single frame long, however not all encoders allow this.
Any ideas on where to start?
Not really from what you've said so far - it sounds as if what you have should work. If you can post a couple of screenshots of the cell details from your slideshow though, maybe we can spot something. Alternatively, if you are able to create a small example project you can upload it to my iDisk and I'll take a look.
Ian
PS. Are you adding the buttons in DVDAE ? Or are they present when you author ?
Info
- When you say it's not working, do you mean it doesn't pause, or the BOVs don't work ?
The BOV's don't work. The pause is working fine.
- Which authoring program are you using ?
I'ts a custom app that we're having developed to help with our DVD's authoring automation.
- How did you create the slideshow ?
Not exactly sure how to answer this one. The slideshow is comprised of still images. Each Image is stored in a cell with a single nav pack. All the images are in a single PGC stored as programs (PG's) within VTS1.
- What have you changed in the slideshow using DVDAE ?
Nothing yet. That is what I'm trying to figure out.
- I assume you are setting the Cell Still Time to 255 to achieve the infinite pause, is that right ?
Right. That is how it is setup when I Import my Video_TS folder.
The BOV's works on my software player, on my cheap dvd player and a few others, but not on several other we tried, including an Oppo player. Any ideas on where to start?
Erick.
More info please
Hi Erick,
Glad you like the program ! It's hard to answer your question without a little more info. So:
- When you say it's not working, do you mean it doesn't pause, or the BOVs don't work ?
- Which authoring program are you using ?
- How did you create the slideshow ?
- What have you changed in the slideshow using DVDAE ?
- I assume you are setting the Cell Still Time to 255 to achieve the infinite pause, is that right ?
I'm sure we can sort this out for you,
Cheers,
Ian
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