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DVD sectors preference measured in 2048 or 2054?
Fri, 2006-06-23 16:51 — okeanos
Just curious: are the sector numbers provided in the DVDAE Mastering preferences panel measured in 2048 or 2054 bytes per sector?
Michael
Hi jjulio, I understand your frustration
Hi jjulio,
I understand your frustration, but what I am saying is:
So unfortunately, we can't offer you any further help. You can ask your question somewhere else, but I don't think you will get an answer, because it's not reliably possible.
Thank-you for your interest, but this thread is now closed.
Ian
RCE Enhancement
Hi jjulio,
The lead-in information on a DVD-R '''always''' contains a Region Code Mask of zero - this is "hard-wired". The value you can change in DVDAE is contained in the VMG ( ie. in the IFO files ) and will be written to a DVD-R with software like Toast or Nero. This means there is a conflict between the lead-in and the VMG information which may cause issues on some players.
Ian
Ian, I am trying to learn how could I protect, and unprotect a DVD at the same time.
About proctecting:
I was thinking about ask a company in my city if they could make DVD-r with Region Code Mask of 4 - "hard-wired"...
About unproctecting:
When ever I try to remove a RCE ( Region Code Enhanced(Enchancement)) from the VMG of a DVD that I have, the Backuped DVD doesn't go through, doesn't play, eventhough The lead-in information of a DVD-R is always zero, as you said. I don't understand.
I only get success, if I try to backup the pressed dvd with the RCE, I mean, with the vmg unchanged. The Backup with RCE(with only the VMG especified to one region) disc plays fine on my multi-region(free zone) restroom DVD player. It only plays in my pc(Region 4), if I close the AnyDVD, thing that I do not need to do while I try to play the pressed dvd. When I tried to play the backup above,with RCE(with only the VMG especified to one region), in another restroom dvd player, for region 4 only, the disc didn´t play, I got the same:" This player is incompatible with the region marking of this disc." I don't undertand. :(
Do you have any ideia?
Sorry, I misunderstood
Sorry, I misunderstood your question, in that case. I think we've got some crossed wires. Any burner will write DDP files with CSS, Region Coding and/or Macrovision as a DDP image on DVD-ROM:
Another reminder: More and more replication plants are accepting DDP on DVD-R. This means that the DVD-R is being used just as if it were a hard drive or an image sent by FTP. Sonic calls this "Plant Direct". The only difference between this and the data on a DLT is that the DLT contains tape headers to help you identify the various pieces, the binary data inside the tape headers is identical to Plant Direct.
So, using DVDAE, you choose "Format to Tape Folders" and the files are written to your hard drive, flagged for CSS or whatever. You can then copy these to any recordable DVD with any burning software and can send the discs to be pressed and everything will work correctly, assuming you have no write errors. ( Make sure the discs are clearly labelled as "DDP files" otherwise they will press DVD-ROMs with image files on them. ) The plant will then add the CSS keys for you, and apply Macrovision, for a suitable charge. This will work on a 201 as well as any other burner.
Bigotti5's earlier post which you quoted is misleading in this respect, I have edited it to avoid confusion in future.
Yes, yes, I know.
http://www.tully.com/archives/msg63268.html
( You'll need to register, but it's free. )
The short answer is - the only reliable way to add Copy Protection to a DVD is to use a DDP image as a master and have them pressed. The DDP files can be on DLT tape, or DVD+/-R - but neither will work in a DVD Player ! There may be some "hacks" that allow this to work some of the time, in some players, but it's not part of the spec so you can't rely on it. Sorry !
Ian
Yes, Yes, I know, but this wasn't what I asked. I asked why the PIONEER DVR-S201 can make DDP, even with Macrovision, but can't do with CSS encrypted? I have asked them directly: https://www3.pioneer.co.jp/support/latin.html, but I haved had any answer yet. :(
Check out this link:
http://www.tully.com/archives/msg63268.html
( You'll need to register, but it's free. )
The short answer is - the only reliable way to add Copy Protection to a DVD is to use a DDP image as a master and have them pressed. The DDP files can be on DLT tape, or DVD+/-R - but neither will work in a DVD Player ! There may be some "hacks" that allow this to work some of the time, in some players, but it's not part of the spec so you can't rely on it. Sorry !
Ian
MACROVISION
DVD discs are written with a total of 2418 bytes per sector, including 2048 bytes user data, 16 bytes of header, 302 bytes of error correction data, and 52 bytes of sync data. A DVD will always have 2048 bytes of user data per sector. The 16 byte header in each sector includes 4 bytes ID, 2 bytes IEC, 6 bytes reserved, and 4 bytes EDC. A CSS encrypted DVD will have a sector key in the reserved 6 bytes of the header. Although DVD recordable drives write all 2418 bytes to each sector, only 2048 bytes of user data are transferred to the drive by the authoring or burning software. The rest of the information is calculated automatically by the drive's firmware. If you are authoring a DVD title that requires CSS encryption, you will need to write your DVD master as a DDP image to DLT. This is because the encoders that create DVD masters at the DVD factory are designed to read these keys during the encoding of masters that require CSS encryption. For CSS encrypted titles, the tape would be formatted with the additional 6 bytes per sector in order to include the CSS sector keys. Although DLTs can be formatted with 2054 byte data sectors, DVDs can not.
Just one more question. Do you know if the Macrovision are written at the same place of the CSS encryptions? Are they written at the same 6 reserved bytes of the header?
If so, I don't understand. Look, if the PIONEER DVR-S201 Can write Macrovision bits, why it Can NOT write CSS Encryption Keys ?
Most of your questions are
Most of your questions are answered elsewhere on the site. For information on mastering, DDP etc, please read all the links in the Mastering section on the quick links page:
http://dvdafteredit.com/node/1498
DDP ( Disc Description Protocol )
The 6-bytes include a byte of general copyright flags and must always be present. These bits are:
CPM - This sector contains copyrighted material
CP_SEC - This sector has specific data structure for copyright protection system (CSS/CPPM)
CGMS - Copy generation management system (how many times it may be copied, etc., 2 bits)
ADP_TY - Adapted Recording Data Type (shall be 0)
CP_MOD - Copyright protection mode (CSS, CPPM, or copyright protection technology for commercial use content.
In the case of CSS, typically, only about one in six sectors is encrypted, to save work by the very weak microprocessors allowed by the DVD spec. On DVD-R's, you do not have access to these bytes, and they are always zero.
As you can see from this tiny paraphrased description from the DVD physical specs, it is all very arcane stuff. And we haven't even touched on the 6 bytes in the CONTROL.DAT file, which includes the region management, also isn't accessible to the burner on a DVD-R, and must be consistent with the information presented here. (Thus Eclipse errors, etc.).
Another reminder: More and more replication plants are accepting DDP on DVD-R. This means that the DVD-R is being used just as if it were a hard drive or an image sent by FTP. Sonic calls this "Plant Direct". The only difference between this and the data on a DLT is that the DLT contains tape headers to help you identify the various pieces, the binary data inside the tape headers is identical to Plant Direct.
Regards,
Larry
What is DDP ( Disc Description Protocol ) ? Is it also recorded in the "lead-in" area of a disc? If so, why The PIONEER DVR-S201 can write it, and can't write any protection, like the RCE(Regional Code Enchanced(Enchancement))?
DDP ( Disc Description Protocol )
DVD discs are written with a total of 2418 bytes per sector, including 2048 bytes user data, 16 bytes of header, 302 bytes of error correction data, and 52 bytes of sync data. A DVD will always have 2048 bytes of user data per sector. The 16 byte header in each sector includes 4 bytes ID, 2 bytes IEC, 6 bytes reserved, and 4 bytes EDC. A CSS encrypted DVD will have a sector key in the reserved 6 bytes of the header. Although DVD recordable drives write all 2418 bytes to each sector, only 2048 bytes of user data are transferred to the drive by the authoring or burning software. The rest of the information is calculated automatically by the drive's firmware. If you are authoring a DVD title that requires CSS encryption, you will need to write your DVD master as a DDP image to DLT. This is because the encoders that create DVD masters at the DVD factory are designed to read these keys during the encoding of masters that require CSS encryption. For CSS encrypted titles, the tape would be formatted with the additional 6 bytes per sector in order to include the CSS sector keys. Although DLTs can be formatted with 2054 byte data sectors, DVDs can not.
What is DDP ( Disc Description Protocol ) ? Is it also recorded in the "lead-in" area of a disc? If so, why The PIONEER DVR-S201 can write it, and can't write any protection, like the RCE(Regional Code Enchanced(Enchancement))?
PIONEER DVR-S201 + "Booktype modification"
Hi jjulio,
The lead-in information on a DVD-R '''always''' contains a Region Code Mask of zero - this is "hard-wired".
I didn't know what was Booktype, and that we could change it. Don't you think that we could try to proctect a DVD with the PIONEER DVR-S201 http://www.arsenproductions.de/knowledgebase/kb_eq_pioneer_dvd.htm , and them change its booktype do DVD-Rom?
Protected DVD
AnyDVD etc. are apparentlly taking control of the low-leve disc drivers and writing the lead-in stuff themselves. But the spec states clearly that on a recordable disc this data must be all zeros, it is only valid for pressed discs. This means that trying to do region copy protection on a recordable disc is pointless, since each player can decide what to do with out-of-spec discs and there will never be a consensus that will work on all players. It's hard enough to get even most players to handle all in-spec discs correctly.
This means that on a recordable disc, if you put anything in the region code besides zero you are violating the spec. That is why most authoring applications only show the region code when you are in the last formatting stages.
We will be implementing burning discs soon, but to save ourselves work and to avoid the program breaking when new OS updates come out, we will avoid pulling any tricks like the decrypters do, and will attempt to follow the specs as closely as possible.
Regards,
Larry
What I am trying to do, is a protected DVD. In my country, a lot use people uses The AnyDVD+CloneDVD to be able to Backup DVDs. I figured out, that at least with some pressed DVDs, like the Bon Jovi Live from London ( Region 4 ) one, we sound not try to remove the RCE protection, otherwise the backuped DVD doesn't play, and many people can give up trying to copy a dvd of mine, before figuring out this. I don't know if the AnyDVD+cloneDVD writes at the the lead-in of a DVD for sure, or if them just keep it in VMG in The IFO files.
There is another interesting thing. If I backup to a dvd r/w, keeping the RCE, it works, but if I do the same thing to a dvd folder, it doesn't work.
See the DVD information before and after the Backup. I just try to remove the CSS/Macrovision/Aps from the Original dvd:
******************* ORIGINAL **********************
Summary for drive D: (AnyDVD 6.1.6.4)
HL-DT-ST DVDRAM GSA-4167B DL11 060810050B032AFEFC
Drive (Hardware) Region: 4
Media is a DVD.
Booktype: dvd-rom (version 1), Layers: 1
Total size: 2282772 sectors (4458 MBytes)
Video DVD (or CD) label: BONJOVI
Media is CSS protected!
Video Standard: NTSC
Media is locked to region(s): 4!
Bad sector protection not found.
**************** Backuped ******************
Summary for drive D: (AnyDVD 6.1.6.4)
HL-DT-ST DVDRAM GSA-4167B DL11 060810050B032AFEFC
Drive (Hardware) Region: 4
Media is a DVD.
Booktype: dvd+rw (version 2), Layers: 1
Total size: 2295104 sectors (4482 MBytes)
Video DVD (or CD) label: BONJOVI
Media is not CSS protected.
Video Standard: NTSC
Media is locked to region(s): 4!
Bad sector protection not found.
***********************************
There is another interesting thing. The Backuped DVD, only plays, on my pc, if I close my anydvd software. It works fine on my restroom dvd plyer.This isn't necessary while trying to play the Original one. I don't know if changing the Booktype would make any difference.
************************************
I will compare know if the ifo files on my hd folder are different from the ones on the backuped dvd.
It can be done at the driver level only
AnyDVD etc. are apparentlly taking control of the low-leve disc drivers and writing the lead-in stuff themselves. But the spec states clearly that on a recordable disc this data must be all zeros, it is only valid for pressed discs. This means that trying to do region copy protection on a recordable disc is pointless, since each player can decide what to do with out-of-spec discs and there will never be a consensus that will work on all players. It's hard enough to get even most players to handle all in-spec discs correctly.
This means that on a recordable disc, if you put anything in the region code besides zero you are violating the spec. That is why most authoring applications only show the region code when you are in the last formatting stages.
We will be implementing burning discs soon, but to save ourselves work and to avoid the program breaking when new OS updates come out, we will avoid pulling any tricks like the decrypters do, and will attempt to follow the specs as closely as possible.
Regards,
Larry
For what it's worth,
For what it's worth, I'm not sure Barry is right - my understanding is that it is not possible to write region code information onto a recordable DVD at all. I'm not sure what the answer to your question is, though - and as far as recommending other software goes, I'm afraid we can't help - our software is intended for professional use, not DVD Backups. You should ask these questions on the AnyDVD, CloneDVD or Doom9 forums.
Author and/or Burn Soft
So do you know any Author and/or Burn Soft that tries to put/insert a RCE in the lead-in of a DVD and a HL-DT-ST DVDRAM GSA-4167B drive may respect?
My guess is...
My guess is that anyDVD and/or CloneDVD does copy the lead-in from the DVD-ROM. And the drive you are using respects this.
Lead-In Information
The start of a lead-in does not normally contain any information. Normally the lead-in starts with a buffer zone containing all zeros. This zone is there so that the hardware can synchronize with the drive by reading "empty" sectors and then continue reading real data without repositioning the laser or re-spinning the disc. From an engineering point of view, this is the function of a lead-in. However there is a bunch of other data that comes after the buffer zone which according to the SFF Committee's "Information Specification for ATAPI DVD Devices" is also part of the lead-in, and the drive reads this to complete the process of synchronization before reading the content.
That being said, the DVD for Authoring Spec 2.0 provides for the inclusion of some "information" in the buffer zone on DVD-ROM. One of these is the region code. The assumption here is that the disc hardware driver could detect the region long before reading and mounting the disc volume structure, and opening the VMG file. This would stop someone from being able to read the files off the disc if the region code did not match their hardware.
Now since the drive hardware uses the lead-in to synchronize and read the actual data on the disc, you could presume that putting unexpected data in there might actually cause some players to fail to read the disc. In practice most drives don't need all the extra blocks of zeros that are in there, they are able to sync with just some of them.
But since the specifications expect the buffer zone to be all zeros on all discs except DVD-ROM, you may encounter a drive which won't read the disc that has anything but zeros in the buffer zone. Or you may see a drive which will fail to read a DVD-ROM if the added information isn't in the buffer zone. However this is not very likely since the drive must read past the buffer zone to control sectors before it can be certain of the type of disc it is reading anyway.
Thus all players which wait to read the region code from the VMG will respect the region code regardless of disc format, because the region code in the lead-in will probably have been ignored by the driver. But since the specifications don't actually allow for region encoding on anything but DVD-ROM you may find cases which fail.
-Barry
Now, please, answer me this
Why, when I backup a pressed RCE dvd, as the Bon Jovi live from London that I have, removing or editing its RCE at the IFO file, with the anyDVD and CloneDVD, the copy doesn't work? I get The still picture: :"This player is incompatible with the region marking of this disc." ? I did a backup keeping this RCE at the IFO file, as you say, and the copy did work. But how could it work, if lead-in has an undefined thing, to be compared with the RCE at the ifo file?
The region code is stored in two places
> Am I wrong ?
Yes and no ! The bit that's catching you out is that recordable discs aren't the same as pressed discs.
On a pressed disc, the region code is stored in two places - the VMG ( IFO file ) which we can edit in DVDAE, and which AnyDVD, Clone DVD etc. can modify; and in the "lead-in" area of the disc. These two values should agree, according to the spec.
On a recordable disc, this "lead-in" doesn't contain any region coding information- it is "undefined", which is why I say it's hard-wired to zero. This isn't an issue except in certain players which expect the lead-in and VMG values to match.
So this only arises when we write recordable discs. If we write DLT or DDP disc images and have the job pressed, the lead-in value will be written correctly.
Does that make sense ?
Ian
RCE Enhancement
Hi jjulio,
the lead-in information on a DVD-R '''always''' contains a Region Code Mask of zero - this is "hard-wired"
What you mean? That it can't be changed? If so, I don't understand. I don't understand because I just backuped up a pressed DVD, with RCE for region 4, with the AnyDVD and the CloneDVD, opting to NOT remove the RCE. So I guess that hard-wire mark was changed from zero to 4. Am I wrong?
Sometimes this works
Hi jjulio,
Are you asking if it's possible to write a DVD-R with a region code ? The answer is "Yes", but it violates the spec in several ways:
HOWEVER (!) despite all these issues, in "the real world", our user's experience shows that most discs written this way will still play fine, and that many players will honour the Region Code. So, the short version is:
Does that help ?
Ian
A sector is a sector
In spite of all the other arcane stuff, sizes are always quoted in sectors. The size of the sector depends on where it is recorded. On hard drive or DLT, no CSS, 2048 bytes. On hard drive or DLT with CSS, 2054 bytes. On DVD, 2418 bytes.
So there is never any translation of one sector size to another.
Regards,
Larry
RCE ( Region Code Enchanced(Enhancement))
DVD discs are written with a total of 2418 bytes per sector, including 2048 bytes user data, 16 bytes of header, 302 bytes of error correction data, and 52 bytes of sync data. A DVD will always have 2048 bytes of user data per sector. The 16 byte header in each sector includes 4 bytes ID, 2 bytes IEC, 6 bytes reserved, and 4 bytes EDC. A CSS encrypted DVD will have a sector key in the reserved 6 bytes of the header. Although DVD recordable drives write all 2418 bytes to each sector, only 2048 bytes of user data are transferred to the drive by the authoring or burning software. The rest of the information is calculated automatically by the drive's firmware. If you are authoring a DVD title that requires CSS encryption, you will need to write your DVD master as a DDP image to DLT. This is because the encoders that create DVD masters at the DVD factory are designed to read these keys during the encoding of masters that require CSS encryption. For CSS encrypted titles, the tape would be formatted with the additional 6 bytes per sector in order to include the CSS sector keys. Although DLTs can be formatted with 2054 byte data sectors, DVDs can not.
As we can backup a dvd, keeping its RCE, I think that we could use our own pc dvd recorder to burn DVDs with RCEs, or am I wrong? If this is really possible, do you know what author and burn program that I/we could use to make DVDs with RCE protections?
6 bytes must always be there
The 6-bytes include a byte of general copyright flags and must always be present. These bits are:
CPM - This sector contains copyrighted material
CP_SEC - This sector has specific data structure for copyright protection system (CSS/CPPM)
CGMS - Copy generation management system (how many times it may be copied, etc., 2 bits)
ADP_TY - Adapted Recording Data Type (shall be 0)
CP_MOD - Copyright protection mode (CSS, CPPM, or copyright protection technology for commercial use content.
In the case of CSS, typically, only about one in six sectors is encrypted, to save work by the very weak microprocessors allowed by the DVD spec. On DVD-R's, you do not have access to these bytes, and they are always zero.
As you can see from this tiny paraphrased description from the DVD physical specs, it is all very arcane stuff. And we haven't even touched on the 6 bytes in the CONTROL.DAT file, which includes the region management, also isn't accessible to the burner on a DVD-R, and must be consistent with the information presented here. (Thus Eclipse errors, etc.).
Another reminder: More and more replication plants are accepting DDP on DVD-R. This means that the DVD-R is being used just as if it were a hard drive or an image sent by FTP. Sonic calls this "Plant Direct". The only difference between this and the data on a DLT is that the DLT contains tape headers to help you identify the various pieces, the binary data inside the tape headers is identical to Plant Direct.
Regards,
Larry
Still confused...
...on a non-CSS DVD, are the 6 reserved bytes blank, then ? Presumably they aren't omitted, since you say 2418 are always written ? Since CSS keys are normally added at the plants, why is it necessary to write a 2054-formatted DLT if the keys aren't included ? Or, does one of the bytes include the on/off flag ?
DVD discs are written with a
DVD discs are written with a total of 2418 bytes per sector, including 2048 bytes user data, 16 bytes of header, 302 bytes of error correction data, and 52 bytes of sync data. A DVD will always have 2048 bytes of user data per sector. The 16 byte header in each sector includes 4 bytes ID, 2 bytes IEC, 6 bytes reserved, and 4 bytes EDC. A CSS encrypted DVD will have a sector key in the reserved 6 bytes of the header. Although DVD recordable drives write all 2418 bytes to each sector, only 2048 bytes of user data are transferred to the drive by the authoring or burning software. The rest of the information is calculated automatically by the drive's firmware. If you are authoring a DVD title that requires CSS encryption, you will need to write your DVD master as a DDP image to DLT [ or DVD-ROM +/-R - Ian ]. This is because the encoders that create DVD masters at the DVD factory are designed to read these keys during the encoding of masters that require CSS encryption. For CSS encrypted titles, the tape would be formatted with the additional 6 bytes per sector in order to include the CSS sector keys. Although DLTs can be formatted with 2054 byte data sectors, DVDs can not. [ For a DDP image on DVD-ROM, this distinction isn't relevant - Ian ].
DVD-R's are bigger than replicated disks
Hi Michael,
Sorry I didn't notice this earlier. The sector sizes given in DVDAE's preferences are for mastering to CSS. I don't know whether a replicator could put more sectors into a non-CSS disc.
A DVD-R holds more data than a replicated disc, so there is no issue with bit-budgeting.
Regards,
Larry
OK...
Larry -
Thanks for the reply.
What's got me scratching my head is whether or not the use of CSS - which increases sector size by 6 bytes - needs to be taken into account during the bit budgeting process. It seems to me that if I add 6 bytes to every sector for CGMS info, then I risk authoring a DVD that fits on a DVD-R but won't actually fit when replicated.
Am I just making this too complex? ;->
Michael
A sector is a sector, so the
A sector is a sector, so the numbers apply to the number of sectors regardless of their length. The number of sectors doesn't change when you decide to do CSS or not. The 2048 vs. 2054-byte sectors applies to the DDP format in which the pre-master for replication is submitted.
There is no "extra allowance" for unencrypted DVD's.